Martin,
I do not understand why you say this. Speaking for my own, I am / was a
contributor to a lot of open source projects, including TopLink, Jersey,
GlassFish and others and had lead several global open source projects in
the past. We are discussing seriously the management problems that we
see in the GlassFish community. You do not know me or "us", nor do you
know our real intension. While I find the words to express the problems
that I see, others are not as eloquent or patient like me and use stupid
words like "F* You all". Certainly this is rude, but we should ever
think about WHY they express their situation in such a way. If GlassFish
would be so great as we all think, that "idiot" would not have written
"F* You all", obviously. Frankly, I am using GlassFish for years, and
there had been lots of situations when I had the exact same three words
in my mind (and I call myself a contributor to the GlassFish eco
system). I really appreciate Sun's and Oracle's work, but there is much
potential to improve (especially if one comes from "real" open processes
and now sees that lots of stuff is going on behind "closed" doors) and
we must take all critics seriously to find the actual cause and fix it.
If you just talk to friendly people, you'll oversee a lot of real
problems worth to get fixed.
Regards
Markus
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin, Ray [mailto:armart3_at_tycho.ncsc.mil]
> Sent: Donnerstag, 23. Juli 2009 19:00
> To: users_at_glassfish.dev.java.net
> Subject: RE: Re: GLASSFISH IS LAME
>
> Mr Dochez,
>
> You are wasting your time. These people are not interested in
helping.
> They are whiners. They are chest thumpers - making noise for the sake
> of making noise. They waste not only your time but everyone's time.
> They are just rude. I empathize with you and your fellow workers.
Why
> some people believe they should abuse other people on a community
forum
> I do not understand. Anyone that uses abusive language - and then
> receives the advocacy of Mr. Karg - who do these people think they are
> -
> it is folks like these who ruin an excellent forum. It is a sad day
> when the whiners and chest thumpers take over a forum.
>
> Mr. Dochez, there are many on this forum who appreciate all the hard
> work that you SUN guys are doing. I am sorry that you have to put up
> with abuse just to do your job. I wish you lots of success.
>
> Thanx for your hard work,
> Ray
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jerome.Dochez_at_Sun.COM [mailto:Jerome.Dochez_at_Sun.COM]
> Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 11:09 AM
> To: users_at_glassfish.dev.java.net
> Subject: Re: GLASSFISH IS LAME
>
> how many times did you join the weekly engineering meeting ?
> zero.
>
> I make an announcement every week on the dev@ alias.
> if you don't try to participate, you cannot complain later that you
> were
> not allowed to participate. I know you have actively and positively
> participated but if you want to become part of the decisions, you
> should
> make yourself visible to the meetings where things are decided.
>
> As for the code being spaghetti style, It's certainly what I was
> suggesting (in a more subtle way...) that GF code in general is
> intimidating, I truly believe it got better in v3 but it's definitely
> not an easy task for anyone.
>
> so if you want to participate, please join the engineering meeting,
get
> the meet the stakeholders of the area you care about and start
> discussions on what's important to you and that's an advice for anyone
> on this mailing list !
>
> jerome
>
> On Jul 23, 2009, at 7:15 AM, Markus Karg wrote:
>
> > Jerome,
> >
> > still you did not convince me (and remember, I *am* / *was* a
> > contributor to Java EE 6 / 5 in projects).
> >
> > The point is that GlassFish's internal structures are completely Sun
> /
>
> > Oracle inventions, so nobody outside of this companies has the time
> > and knowledge to understand it. If you really want to get volunteers
> > in the boat (remember, we are no students, we all are long-
> experienced
>
> > software architects), you must get the code to a style that allows
> > externals to work on small components which can be overseen in the
> > spare time. I tried with EclipseLink. It is nearly impossible, since
> > it is Spaghetti Code in some areas.
> >
> > Also, people not only want to do the "dirty work" like doing the
> > hacking while others do the decisions. They want to participiate in
> > the decisions. Remember, we do not talk about specification
decisions
> > (everybody can become part of JCP), we talk about *implementation*
> > decision. Why? Because this thread started about bugs, and bugs are
> > not decided by JCP, obviously.
> >
> > So in theory you are right, everybody can participate in JCP. But in
> > reality nobody cares for JCP, they all care for the implementation,
> > since this is what users see and feel later. And THERE nobody
outside
> > of Sun / Oracle can officially participate. Or did I miss a link
> where
>
> > I can add myself to the EJB 3.1 Client Container team to actively
> > participate in the decisions that where leading to the hangs that I
> > still experience...?
> >
> > Regards
> > Markus
> >
> >> The processes to define what goes in glassfish is much more open
> than
>
> >> what you seem to think. First of all, even Sun engineers don't have
> >> that much to say in what goes into glassfish because it's mostly
> >> driven by specifications. Specifications are driven within the JCP
> >> and are open to external participants so one good way of driving
> >> features into Glassfish and others appservers is actually to
> >> participate to the JCP process. Above the Java EE specifications,
we
> >> have also released all the product specifications by feature and
> >> that's also an opportunity to add or criticize.
> >>
> >> On top of that, we have had a lot of committers willing to
> >> participate to the GlassFish project itself. I have personally
tried
> >> to involve some of these external committers to some task (yes they
> >> have to start small so we gain confidence) but in general, the
> >> GlassFish project being so big, the source code is intimidating, or
> >> the people just end up not having the time, most of them don't
> follow
>
> >> up. We do have some who participates daily and I don't think we
ever
> >> kept them in the dark. All meetings are open for anyone to join at
> >> least by phone.
> >>
> >> At the end, I don't remember shutting out anyone willing to
> >> participate (granted his level of participation was useful) but the
> >> reality is that we cannot expect external folks to be able to spend
> >> considerable amount of their personal time on the project which
> would
>
> >> be necessary to not introduce more risks to a schedule.
> >>
> >> For such a big project, the overwhelming size of the code, the time
> >> involved in understanding enough of GF is probably the biggest
> >> barrier to participation but it's certainly not a conscious
decision
> >> from Sun to hide anything.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Regards
> >>> Markus
> >>
> >>
> >>
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> >
> >
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