[jax-rs-spec users] Re: Hypermedia API

From: Markus KARG <>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 13:38:23 +0100


yes and exactly at that point we'd like to give the data model designer an
annotation at hand which marks that field as an injection point for the
actual URI at runtime. That's the sole idea of the proposed API. :-)


-----Original Message-----
From: Sergey Beryozkin []
Sent: Montag, 15. Dezember 2014 11:25
Subject: Re: Hypermedia API

Hi Markus

What I meant is that data model designers may not necessarily need the help
of JAX-RS in order to design the data representations that can accommodate
Example, a data designer wishing for a given piece of data have a link would
add a field such as href, etc... May it is oversimplifying it...
Cheers, Sergey
On 15/12/14 09:46, Markus KARG wrote:
> It is not as simple as you say. You're right that for XML and other
> generic syntax there cannot be a generic entity provider. Hence, a
> generic XML entity provider will not be able to fulfil the application
> author's wish, obviously. But in that case, the request is invalid, as
> it relies on the false assumption that there can be a generic solution
> with pure XML. XML cannot do magic tricks, hence JAX-RS cannot.
> Certainly the proposed API makes only sense for "valid wishes", i. e.
> the application assembler co-bundles entity providers (one or many)
> which are non-generic, i. e. are written according for particular XML
> schemas (hence not generically
> @Produces("application/xml") but partcularly
> @Produces("application/xml+foobar") for example, where "foobar" is a
> link-aware schema. I understand that for JAX-RS _implementation
> vendors_ this looks like a rather seldom case, but from the view of a
> JAX-RS _application vendor_ and _extension vendor_ this is my daily work,
> You're pretty right that this API is only good for the data model
> designers, absolutely. But I am representing these people in this
> expert group. JAX-RS is not only about SPI topics (which are essential
> for JAX-RS implementation
> vendors) but to a great extend is an API for application vendors. :-)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sergey Beryozkin []
> Sent: Sonntag, 14. Dezember 2014 21:30
> To:
> Subject: Re: Hypermedia API
> Hi Markus
> On 12/12/14 18:34, Markus KARG wrote:
>> This is correct, hence it is impossible to have a generic solution,
>> but need support by Entity Providers. As Entitiy Providers are aware
>> of the abilitiy how to merge structural links, they -and only they-
>> can decide about the sole correct way to add them at time of coding
>> and how to resolve them at time of decoding.
> The above is a conflicting statement. A solution involving the entity
> providers can not qualify as a generic solution because the providers
> have no idea about the schema constraints possibly applied to a
> representation to be produced from a given bean.
> This solution can work in some cases where no schemas are involved or
> a consumer does not care about the validation or when schemas are
> designed to allow the extra content. But it is not a generic solution.
> To be honest I do not expect such solutions to become mainstream.
> It is really about people designing the data model, the one meant for
> the external consumption, with the links in mind, auto-augmenting the
> existing data can be interesting but does not appear to be something
> 2.1 should be spending much time on
> Sergey
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Sergey Beryozkin []
>> Sent: Donnerstag, 11. Dezember 2014 22:24
>> To:
>> Subject: Re: Hypermedia API
>> The problem with auto-augmenting XML with links is that it can
>> produce non valid XML, schema - invalid. A corresponding schema
>> instance (and for most serious applications there will be a schema)
>> may not be open enough for a given XML instance to include extra
>> attributes or elements representing the links.
>> Sorry if I misunderstood
>> Sergey
>> On 11/12/14 21:02, Markus KARG wrote:
>>> I do not see how JSON-LD is any better than XML based links, as it
>>> doesn't solve the root problem: In the end it plays no role whether
>>> the document syntax is JSON or XML. The problem is the missing API.
>>> To make structural links work, there must be standard annotations in
>>> the entity POJOs, and the entity providers must process them, and
>>> the spec must unambiguously tell how. Yes this is tough, but I think
>>> that shouldn't be an excuse for not standardizing it. Rather we
>>> should concentrate on the question whether we _want_ standardize
>>> structural links or not, and in case we do, who provides the RI for
>>> that, as possibly Casey has something which can be built upon, and
>>> implementing it won't be cheap, and it has to be done by _all_
>>> JAX-RS
> vendors.
>>> So my question to the spec leads and vendors is: Shall we really go
>>> on with discussing structural links, or is it simply out of scope of
>>> JSR 370? Frankly, I would love to have structural links API, but I
>>> certainly respect it if none of the vendors wants to pay that. In
>>> the end, a standardization should standardize existing products, not
>>> enforce _all_ vendors to build something made up synthetically from
> scratch.
>>> *From:*Santiago Pericas-Geertsen
>>> []
>>> *Sent:* Donnerstag, 11. Dezember 2014 20:47
>>> *To:*
>>> *Subject:* Re: Hypermedia API
>>> Casey,
>>> Yes, structural links in entities is not something that JAX-RS
>>> provides any "special" support for (in some cases, people have
>>> included them in headers, but it is arguably less clean).
>>> The reason why JAX-RS hasn't done much (other than the JAXB Link
>>> serialization bit) is that JAX-RS has not been, and likely never
>>> will be, in the business of (structured) entity serialization; it
>>> delegates to specific JSON and XML libraries for that. Clearly this
>>> is an issue for link processing, but the architectural decision of
>>> not duplicating existing APIs is certainly sound.
>>> As you point out, JAX-RS would need some additional meta-data to
>>> "learn" about these links in representations. However, this needs to
>>> be done without introducing unnecessary coupling and in a standard
>>> manner --that is, not in a way that would require using a JAX-RS
>>> implementation for it to work. This is a difficult problem to solve.
>>> JSON-LD [1] is a step in the right direction, especially since
>>> becoming a W3C recommendation. Not having full control of the
>>> serialization is still an issue for us, but perhaps there's
>>> something we can do working with the new JSON-B EG.
>>> -- Santiago
>>> [1]
>>> On Dec 11, 2014, at 1:43 PM, Casey Lee <
>>> <>> wrote:
>>> I agree, Markus that the issue here is the technical infrastructure
>>> (or lack of) around HATEOAS has limited its adoption and
>>> understanding. Specifically, the limitation is with the fact that
>>> the links we currently have with JAX-RS 2.0 are only transitional
>>> links in the HTTP header, but no support for structural links in the
> Entity.
>>> I feel the issue is that the current API is all about RESOURCES,
>>> which causes server side developers to focus more on the URIs than
>>> on the REPRESENTATIONS. Additionally, this has leaked into the
>>> client API, causing the client side developer to also have an
>>> awareness of the resources, which limits the need to think about
>>> links or at best makes the links optional.
>>> Is there an opportunity to evolve the API to enable adding (server
>>> side) and retrieving (client side) Links from the Entity? One
>>> approach would be by annotating your Entity POJOs where Links would
>>> be added. This would allow some declaration of the structural (and
>>> possibly transitional) links for the representation.
>>> This would cause developers (client and server side) to begin to
>>> think about links and the structure/relationships of the
>>> At our organization, we've developed our own sets of annotations for
>>> declaring the structure of your representations and associating them
>>> to a media type. All of our documentation and the API that the
>>> client uses is based on the following:
>>> * Follow a link
>>> * Get back a representation
>>> * Find a link in the entity
>>> * Repeat
>>> This causes us to spend most of our effort describing the media
>>> types, and very little if any effort describing the URIs.
>>> -Casey
>>> On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 1:36 PM, Markus KARG <
>>> <>> wrote:
>>> Santiago,
>>> you asked for statements on the field of hypermedia and reactive. I
>>> will take the chance to start discussion hereby on the field of
>>> hypermedia and provide a starter for reactive in a separate thread.
>>> Some weeks back I gave a lecture on JAX-RS 2.0 big picture at JUG
>> Stuttgart,
>>> just as I did infrequently at other events before. I'd like to
>>> describe
>> the
>>> reactions as those were stereotypical, independent of audience,
>>> location
>> and
>>> date. People where convinced by the very clean separation of
>>> concerns (application made up from pure domain objects, technical
>>> aspects separated from domain model), and the mostly declarative
>>> programming style (simply adding annotations to declare needs,
>>> engine solves the needs "under the hood" using a sophisticated and
>>> extensible technical infrastructure). But when the presentation came
>>> to hypermedia support, they were some kind of shocked by the mostly
>>> algorithmic coding style needed to make it work, voiding the
>>> aforementioned separation of concerns and declarative code style.
>>> While the existing API clearly is a foundation to achieve at least
>>> "something", real HATEOAS becomes a hack with the existing low level
>> support
>>> only. Code gets cluttered with old-style techno-punk, which is hard
>>> to
>> read
>>> and understand. This is due to the lack of a declarative way to tell
>>> the infrastructure how to make up the links from application domain
>>> state, and how to provide the links to an entitiy provider so he can
>>> merge them into the wire-level representation. Certainly everbody
>>> would vote for a declarative kind of solution fitting into the
>>> existing infrastructure. On the other hand, nobody (yes, really
>>> zero) people wanted to agree that they have a REAL NEED for HATEOAS
>>> (hence, neither for an explicit HATEOAS API)
>> as
>>> 100% of all attendees admitted that their recent and current RESTful
>>> projects are on level 1 or 2 of the REST Maturity Model only, and
>>> that the largest obstacle to level 3 is not a techical issue (hence
>>> not a missing explicit HATEOAS API) but the fact that HATEOS as a
>>> paradigm simply is not well understood by most of them and / or they
>>> do not see the actual
>> benefit
>>> of HATEOAS in the real world: It wouldn't pay off, but it would be
>>> cool,
>> to
>>> sum it up.
>>> So the question is: Is HATEOAS commonly understood well enough that
>>> it
>> makes
>>> actual sense to provide an explicit API for it, or does it make
>>> sense to make an API even when it is not? And if we define an API,
>>> do we all agree that it should support the separation of concerns
>>> and declarative style
>> that
>>> is typical for JAX-RS?
>>> I think without an agreement on that general topics, it wouldn't be
>>> a good idea to discuss any kind of details of API proposals in the
>>> area of
>>> Bill and Sergey, what's your opinion on that?
>>> Regards
>>> -Markus
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Santiago Pericas-Geertsen
>> []
>>> Sent: Mittwoch, 10. Dezember 2014 20:03
>>> To:
>>> <>
>>> Cc: Marek Potociar
>>> Subject: Welcome to the JAX-RS 2.1 EG
>>> Hello Experts,
>>> Welcome to the JAX-RS 2.1 (JSR 370) expert group!
>>> This is the official mailing list for the JSR. Note that the old
>>> mailing list for JAX-RS 2.0 (JSR 339) is still available for 2.0
>>> Before we start any discussions, I would like everyone to take a
>>> couple of minutes and read the JSR description one more time to make
>>> sure we are all on the same page ;)
>>> ===
>>> 2.1 Please describe the proposed Specification:
>>> Server-Sent Events (SSE) is a new technology defined as part of the
>>> HTML5 set of recommendations for a client (e.g., a browser) to
>>> automatically get updates from a server via HTTP. It is commonly
>>> employed for one-way streaming data transmissions in which a server
>>> updates a client
>> periodically
>>> or every time an event takes place.
>>> JAX-RS 2.0 introduced the notion of asynchronous processing for both
>>> the client and the server APIs. However, asynchronous processing
>>> alone cannot deliver on all the promises of a modern architecture
>>> without the help of non-blocking I/O. If only blocking I/O is
>>> available, asynchronous
>> processing
>>> simply pushes the problem from one thread to the next --this is akin
>>> to borrowing from a person to pay another, the problem is not really
>>> solved, only deferred. Thus, support for non-blocking I/O is
>>> necessary to achieve high throughput and efficiently manage
>>> resources
> like threads.
>>> In summary, the following is a list of the tasks in scope for JAX-RS
>>> * Adding support for SSE.
>>> * Improving integration with CDI.
>>> * Exploring support for non-blocking I/O in providers (filters,
>>> interceptors, etc.).
>>> * Evaluating ways in which declarative security can be supported
>>> either directly in this JSR or by leveraging other EE-platform JSRs.
>>> * Making JAXB conditional on runtimes where it is available.
>>> * Providing integration with JSON-B.
>>> * Building upon the hypermedia API added in version 2.0.
>>> * Investigating the reactive programming paradigm as a way to
>>> improve the JAX-RS asynchronous client API.
>>> * Evaluating any requirements necessary to support the use of JAX-RS
>>> resource classes as controllers in the MVC 1.0 JSR.
>>> ===
>>> Some useful links:
>>> [JSR]
>>> [JAX-RS Spec] [JIRA for 2.1]
>>> [RI]
>>> [E-mail Archives]
>>> As before, all of our discussions will be conducted using the
>>> expert's alias and (automatically) CCed to the user's alias.
>>> Some of the 2.1 tasks above require coordination with other
>>> specifications (JSON-B, Security), so these tasks will tackled later
>>> on
> in the process.
>>> We have tentatively selected 2 topics to start our discussions, both
>>> of which require some investigation, these are: hypermedia
>>> improvements and reactive programming. If you have any
>>> suggestions/comments/concerns about these two topics, feel free to
>>> start a discussion about them. We will be sending some more info as
>>> well
> in the upcoming weeks.
>>> Looking forward to working with all of you!
>>> --
>>> Santiago Pericas-Geertsen
>>> Marek Potociar
>>> JSR 370 Spec Leads