I think we are mixing up a lot of stuff here.
1) Profiles in general
WebProfile was a good decision by bundling a couple of technologies
which are much easier to use and operate than the full stack.
I still tend to see this as a kind of a certification initiative to
get things like Tomcat onboard with EE.
I would also love to see some other profiles as suggested back in the
days. A Portal Profile or a Mobile Profile or something like that.
Stuff bundled to more or less exactly fit the needs of different
usecases within the EE specs.
Looking at my daily projects I couldn't find a single example where a
"Minimal profile" would have solved any issues at all. it only would
have generated a lot of overhead for DIY combination of technologies
that are needed. Recalling the fact that we have good examples for
stuff that has to be in the server classpath (logging) this wouldn't
change the operations side. You still would end up having projects
willing to change
the ops defined installation templates.
2) " If Devs and Ops love Tomcat, let's give them Tomcat-like app servers."
That's a product thing, right? I mean, that is why David launched
TomEE ? The problem here is the brand :) I mean ... wait a few
more years and TomEE is loved by the crowd ... To me this isn't about
features or stuff. It's about people not willing to change. And
that is completely fine. Tomcat is a strong brand and I am happy that
we have them on board with the WebProfile.
3) Component updates
That's a mess until today. Whatever component you are looking to
upgrade in the appserver of your choice. That needs to be fixed.
Period.
And that doesn't belong to a specific "Profile".
4) less possible combination of operating systems/JVM/appserver
These are issues we should closely look at the current release. All
the PaaS vendors are looking into this and every outcome here is worth
to be considered for EE 7. I don't have too many insights here because
I'm not running my own cloud (unfortunately :)) ) but I guess we could
get more feedback from RedHat, IBM and SAP beside Oracle ... I would
love to read about their experiences and what could be defined better
to suit their needs ...
I guess we both made our points clear ;) Happy to receive further
feedback from the other members!
- M
On 2 July 2012 09:34, Antonio Goncalves <antonio.goncalves_at_gmail.com> wrote:
> Exactly, we are working with EE. But what is EE ? A Spring-like application
> running on Tomcat is using Servlets at a minimum, that's EE. I'm not saying
> Tomcat is not a EE app server, I'm saying Tomcat is using a subset of EE
> (such as Resin/TomEE is using a subset of EE that we called Web Profile).
>
> When we created the Web Profile we changed the internal structure of
> application servers. Since EE 6, app servers are not the same : they are
> modular, they had to. If we create a Minimal Profile we could change the
> history of EE and allow all sorts of applications to run on the same
> application server (using different profile)
>
> Antonio
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 9:26 AM, Markus Eisele <myfear_at_web.de> wrote:
>>
>> Antonio,
>>
>> this simply isn't the right answer. Even if I am going to kill your
>> argumentation line with that
>> I would love to point you to a quote you know:
>> "If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster
>> horses." They tell us, Henry Ford said that,
>> but anyway it comes down to a point which is right.
>>
>> I'm simply not willing to address short time needs. If you are looking
>> at "Spring-like" applications; Tomcat might
>> be your solution already.
>> We are working on EE with it's defined scope and features and I
>> personally believe this isn't done with simply stripping
>> every requirement down towards zero in order to make it simple.
>> I'm exaggerating a bit here to make my point clear. Sorry for that.
>>
>> -M
>>
>> On 2 July 2012 09:17, Antonio Goncalves <antonio.goncalves_at_gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > I think the problem is more on the Ops side of it than Devs. What do I
>> > see
>> > on my day to day work ? Tomcat is the common denominator, so Tomcat is
>> > used
>> > in production for most of the Spring-like applications. And then, there
>> > is a
>> > bit of JBoss/GlassFish/OrWhatever for EE applications. Ops don't really
>> > get
>> > it and don't really care about specs or implementations. They want to
>> > administer the less possible combinations of operating systems/JVM/app
>> > server. If you give them a "JBoss Minimal", a "JBoss Web Profile" and a
>> > "JBoss Full", for them it's still the same JBoss that they administer.
>> > Same
>> > thing for the migration path : if they know how to administer Tomcat and
>> > it
>> > works, why would they invest in something else ?
>> >
>> > I agree with you that better modularity would help, but in the real
>> > life,
>> > modularity is still not perfect. Either we "specify" that EE app servers
>> > need to be modular (and we are not ready for EE 7) or we just create a
>> > new
>> > Minimal profile that could be a killer profile for all the Spring-link
>> > applications runnning on Tomcat.
>> >
>> > If Devs and Ops love Tomcat, let's give them Tomcat-like app servers.
>> >
>> > Antonio
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 7:17 AM, Markus Eisele <myfear_at_web.de> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hi,
>> >>
>> >> > I am very supportive of better modularity/pluggability (even in
>> >> > case of swapping/upgrading Java EE API implementations on a given
>> >> > Java
>> >> > EE
>> >> > platform -- e.g. swapping Weld for OWB on GlassFish).
>> >>
>> >> Same here! That would be a very valuable place to look for
>> >> improvements as early as possible.
>> >> Especially with the "cloud topic" in mind this could be the switch to
>> >> push.
>> >> Imagine the issues a PaaS provider would run into:
>> >>
>> >> 1) swapping/upgrading RIs due to security issues
>> >> 2) providing own/patched RIs as services
>> >>
>> >> I think we could come up with even more ;)
>> >>
>> >> There is still the jigsaw "problem".
>> >> If I only look at the (hopefully) latest system requirements document
>> >> from
>> >> Mark
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> http://openjdk.java.net/projects/jigsaw/doc/draft-java-module-system-requirements-12
>> >> it's absolutely possible that every single minute spent with EE 7 will
>> >> be worth exactly nothing.
>> >>
>> >> @Linda/Bill ?
>> >>
>> >> -M
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > On 7/2/2012 12:45 AM, Markus Eisele wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Hi Antonio,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> here are my two cents:
>> >> >> The profile idea was good. And I still support it. Even if the
>> >> >> reason
>> >> >> for it simply was to lower the barriers for web-container centered
>> >> >> products to earn a Java EE certification.
>> >> >> It would be nice to have more specialized profiles around but I
>> >> >> don't
>> >> >> believe a new "Servlet/Minimal profil" would be of any help with
>> >> >> your
>> >> >> problem.
>> >> >> With all the core modules being present in the server classpath you
>> >> >> end up having trouble replacing them. It ever has been like this.
>> >> >> I have similar experiences while switching from one vendor to the
>> >> >> other in general. Even upgrading containers for a single product is
>> >> >> a
>> >> >> pain most of the time.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Having a minimal/lightweight whatever-you-call-it profile in place
>> >> >> solves this but you would end up with your own DIY app-server.
>> >> >> That's
>> >> >> not the way I would like to see Java EE moving. This approach could
>> >> >> even be harder in terms of migration in the future. And it sets a
>> >> >> comparably high barrier for beginners which need to know which
>> >> >> technologies to pick.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Instead what I would love to see is, that we move forward with some
>> >> >> thoughts regarding modularization and version number ranges for
>> >> >> dependent technologies.
>> >> >> All the modularization work that is done for Java 8 might be a good
>> >> >> way to facilitate this with later EE versions.
>> >> >> To me it doesn't seem to be a good fit investing into this before
>> >> >> Java
>> >> >> 8 (and so Java EE 8) and I also don't support having a new minimal
>> >> >> profile.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> -M
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On 29 June 2012 23:34, Antonio Goncalves
>> >> >> <antonio.goncalves_at_gmail.com>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Hi all,
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Four years ago, when we were building Java EE 6, we had this idea
>> >> >>> of a
>> >> >>> minimal profile that Roberto blogged about
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> (http://weblogs.java.net/blog/robc/archive/2008/02/profiles_in_the.html).
>> >> >>> The idea was to standardise "Tomcat-like" application servers with
>> >> >>> a
>> >> >>> minimal
>> >> >>> profile containing Servlets and JSPs. So we would have had this
>> >> >>> "minimal"
>> >> >>> profile, the web profile and the full one. We mostly voted no on
>> >> >>> this
>> >> >>> minimal profile, and I was one of them.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I've spent the week migrating a JSF 1.2 application running on
>> >> >>> Tomcat
>> >> >>> to
>> >> >>> JBoss 6 EAP (which comes with JSF 2.0). Now I'm trying to run an
>> >> >>> application
>> >> >>> with JAX-RS 2.0 running on GlassFish 3.x (which comes with JAX-RS
>> >> >>> 1.1).
>> >> >>> On
>> >> >>> both cases, it's hell. This would be easier if I could have used a
>> >> >>> JBoss
>> >> >>> 6
>> >> >>> EAP Minimal Profile (or a GlassFish 3.x Minimal Profile) and bundle
>> >> >>> my
>> >> >>> own
>> >> >>> external jars like I do with Tomcat. If we want applications to
>> >> >>> migrate
>> >> >>> to
>> >> >>> Java EE application servers, one ease of use would be to have just
>> >> >>> a
>> >> >>> servlet
>> >> >>> container. And it will give a nice migration plan to application :
>> >> >>> e.g.
>> >> >>> "migrate from Tomcat to JBoss Minimal profile, and then when you
>> >> >>> are
>> >> >>> used
>> >> >>> to
>> >> >>> your new application server, move to a Web Profile and start adding
>> >> >>> other
>> >> >>> Java EE modules".
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I think having a new "Minimal Profile" (a better name would be a
>> >> >>> "Servlet
>> >> >>> Profile" with just Servlets, EL and JSP) would increase modularity
>> >> >>> in
>> >> >>> application servers and help applications to migrate to Java EE.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> What would you think of introducing a new profile in Java EE 7 ?
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Antonio
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> -----
>> >> >> No virus found in this message.
>> >> >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> >> >> Version: 2012.0.2171 / Virus Database: 2437/5105 - Release Date:
>> >> >> 07/01/12
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Antonio Goncalves
>> > Software architect and Java Champion
>> >
>> > Web site | Twitter | LinkedIn | Paris JUG | Devoxx France
>
>
>
>
> --
> Antonio Goncalves
> Software architect and Java Champion
>
> Web site | Twitter | LinkedIn | Paris JUG | Devoxx France