[javaee-spec users] Re: -experts list

From: Scott Stark <>
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 09:52:30 -0700

Is this split requirement still Oracle legal's view post JCP 2.8?

On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 10:24 PM, Bill Shannon <> wrote:
> Hi Craig. I'm always amazed at some of the bizarre mailers people use, and
> some of the strange ways they use them. I can't explain why these things
> are happening, nor why people are doing them.
> I know the setup isn't as nice as we would like. We've asked for some
> improvements in the mail system infrastructure but the team that owns it
> is hesitant to do anything that's not critical because they plan to
> replace the entire mail infrastructure to solve some other problems.
> No, I don't know when that might happen nor whether it might address
> any of our particular problems.
> Sadly, one of the reasons we have two lists is due to advice from our
> lawyers. Contributions from expert group members are under the terms
> of the JSPA, but contributions from the public are under the terms of
> use for The two lists are an attempt to provide some
> separation. I'm sure you can point out all sorts of ways in which it's
> not perfect, but try explaining that to lawyers! :-)
> Given the constraints we're operating under, we've done the best we can
> to provide a setup that allows and encourages participation from the
> public. And of course, if you still feel like you're on the outside,
> you might consider joining the expert group. We're always looking for
> people like you to provide a different perspective.
> Anyway, thanks for your contributions so far. I'm hoping to get caught
> up on some of the recent discussions and have more to say about them
> tomorrow.
> Craig Ringer wrote on 07/25/2012 05:54 PM:
>> It is becoming increasingly difficult to participate in any discussion here
>> because of the -experts and -users list split.
>> People keep on replying to -users discussion on -experts, removing the cc of
>> -users. The discussion is split between the two lists, and whenever I go to
>> reply I have to check the recipient list carefully or I get a bounce from SYMPA
>> explaining that I don't deserve to participate^W^W^W am not an -experts list
>> member. Because people remove -users from the cc list I have to add it again
>> every time, or my message generally only goes to the most immediately recent
>> participant in the conversation.
>> Does the EG seek outside opinions and experiences, or not? The -users and
>> -experts split - and more importantly, the fact that discussion keeps on being
>> moved to -experts - is a great way to suppress interest in participation.
>> Presumably the moves to -experts are necessary because not everybody reads -users.
>> I would like to think that experience from people who're actually implementing
>> real-world applications and *using* the specs would be valued.
>> --
>> Craig Ringer