Hi Kristian,Thank you again for your clearly described position. I hope in practice we will be able to see soon what will works or not :)
Let me make some kind of conclusion based on your and Richard's letters.
Kristian's position is to follow a traditional way that based on pure enthusiasm and without or pretty weak awarding schema. Richard's position is to start follow a traditional way but with tendency to build strong then usual awarding schema.Vladimir's position is to take a cardinally new approach with tendency to build online developer's world based on virtual currency.
Judy's position was described pretty clear in one of her letter. Beside she is Oracle's employee and this fact naturally put some limits to her official position.
If I have described incorrectly current balance of opinions between active participants of discussion please correct me.Now question is how we should proceed further. What do you think? Probably we should ask Richard to provide us with some kind of plan. I'm personally is ready to compromise.Or maybe we should wait a couple days until Richard will finish "Survey" game and only then start to do some planning.
Best regards,Vladimir
> Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 20:40:48 +0200
> From: rink_at_planconnect.de
> To: quality_at_glassfish.dev.java.net
> Subject: Re: Request for comments : FishCAT, the way forward
>
> Hi Vladimir;
>
> hmmm, again, quite some points to think about... and a few
> responses... ;)
>
> Am Mon, 28 Jun 2010 03:11:20 +0000
> > get attention at time of fishing :) Anyway when you are designing
> > some kind of software system I'm sure you are trying to make it
> > scalable and unifiable as much as possible. So in process of
> > designing motivation system please do not try to align its design to
> > your personal chances to win the war of the attention.
>
> You are right. But, reading especially the next paragraph, and thinking
> about the whole issue of rewarding again, I came to a conclusion in the
> question "What exactly do we want?"
>
> * Do we want a system providing a reward for people who willingly and
> voluntarily offered time, experience and other resources to the
> project? - or -
>
> * Do we want a system initially providing motivation for people who
> wouldn't pay attention otherwise?
>
> I remember a discussion like that on the NetBeans (NetCAT) mailing list
> a while ago when some people, after NetCAT finished (NetCAT used to
> have the approach of providing "winners" (...) with t-shirts, these
> days), asked whether it wouldn't be possible to provide them with sweat
> shirts or some more "valuable" clothing instead of just tees, and one
> of the NetBeans folks used to ask "what? free IDE isn't enough?"
>
> Actually, I made my mind on that I think... you have me strongly waving
> each and every flag for a rewarding system to reward enthusiasts who
> came here for the sake of it and, in the end, quietly would accept a
> reward for their time and energy. But I have doubts in _starting out_
> with a reward system to attract folks. This, IMHO, would put the wrong
> thing in the first place...
>
>
> [...]
> > because I failed to see if the problem exists. Let me put your
> > concern in more unified form. In my interpretation you are saying the
> > following: "Why to introduce award schema for services that can be
> > provided for free?" It's important question that we have to be
> > prepared to answer on it.
> [...]
>
> No, you got me wrong here I think, that's why I cut off the rest of the
> discussion and focus on that article (though most of your points on
> that definitely are valid).
>
> I do not believe you or I or we or anyone should rely upon services
> provided for free. My only opinion, and this is where I tend to be a
> little stubborn I guess... ( ;) ) is that money/economic reward is a
> reward little promising to gather the kind of people one wants. It's
> not about collecting free service and/or making people work for "us"(?)
> free-of-charge. To me, it rather is about finding people that bring
> "life" to the project, people who come running here, driven by
> enthusiasm and encouraged by seeing they're capable of making a change
> no matter how small. Put another way: make a system based upon
> financial/economic reward, and you will attract people who will mainly
> come to reap that reward rather than people who will come to get
> something done and accept a reward (given there is one) afterward.
>
>
> > > like this). The Ubuntu Mailing List is one of the friendliest
> > > places> I've ever been, a place where a whole load of people are
> > > places> likely to> quickly help you out without second thought. It
> > > places> works... ;)
> > One of the explanation friendliest of the Ubuntu forum could be that
> > many of them working as network administrators and have more time on
> > their hands comparing to typical developer. For them it could be some
> > kind of "customer support" oriented training. Of course it would be
> > interesting to organize "motivation survey" there and get more
> > precise data on this.
>
> I fully agree with you on the latter part (motivation survey). But then
> again, 95% of the Ubuntu folks I personally know (and some of them I do
> not just know "virtually") did sign the "Ubuntu Code Of Conduct"
>
> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct ,
>
> including myself to be accuracte. This is more than just being
> "technical" or having too much spare time at hand. It's a motivation
> and an attitude beyond these things, and I firmly believe in the
> strength of this motivation as it is the driving force behind most of
> nowadays open source projects.
>
>
> > We could try to put in trade agreement with Oracle possibility to buy
> > "Enterprise Manager" for dukes.Regarding your description how open
> > source business model is working I agree completely with the picture
> > you put here.In my previous letter I intentionally simplified related
> > model to make point that this model is not ideal and need to be
> > redesigned.It's very big topic that we could discuss a little bit
> > later.
>
> Ok, fine with me. :)
>
>
>
> > > I honestly have to say that Eclipse and OSGi is the dominating>
> > > technology in the JUG environment, and people seemed to stay away
> > > from> Sun technology apart from the JDK of course.
> >
> > I honestly believe if Oracle will accept our trade policy Glassfish
> > will quickly become dominated technology :)
>
> Depends, I am not sure about that. I see (and each and every week again
> learn) that quite some people are into Eclipse, Apache, Codehaus, ...
> for the sole purpose of not depending upon one very business entity all
> too much. Given that, the success of Glassfish will largely depend upon
> how "open" Oracle will allow it to be.
>
>
> [...]
> > > enthusiasm and people doing things out of passion. I think that>
> > > reaching those people is incredibly more difficult, and maybe there
> > > are
> > Just take in account how incredibly easy we can reach people when we
> > have currency on the hands :)
>
> Yes. We will. I am absolutely sure about that. But will that make the
> project more effective, more powerful? Or will it "just" attract more
> people which lack any enthusiasm, any fun or real, personal,
> compassionate involvement and just are "in it for the money" (whether
> virtual or real)?
>
> Personally, looking around NetBeans folks, looking around earlier
> FishCAT teams, I remember seeing people which used to be right that -
> passionate about what they do. Maybe, in such a setup, boundaries tend
> to be fuzzy between "testers", "users" and "street-team-alike
> grassroots marketing". Provide users with a fair reason to get aware of
> things, provide them with a small "care pack" (GlassFish stickers for
> the notebook, maybe a GlassFish lawnyard to take care of your keys or a
> decent GlassFish to wear on your tie when visiting customers), given
> them a small sensation of being "part of it", of being and feeling
> involved into something without "just" working on it. That, for sure,
> is not something to feed you I guess, it eventually will be hard to
> achieve this in a process which, at the core, is voluntary. But it
> would motivate, and it will for sure be good for your resume. Maybe
> FishCAT also could be a "GlassFish Street Team"? What do you think? ;)
>
> K.
>
>
>
> --
> Dipl.-Ing.(BA) Kristian Rink * Software- und Systemingenieur
> planConnect GmbH * Könneritzstr. 33 * 01067 Dresden
> fon: 0351 215 203 71 * cell: 0176 2447 2771 * mail: rink_at_planconnect.de
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