Hi Kristian,I'm sitting now on the bed and looks like I have one or two hours to fight with you a good fight :)We will see yet who is more stubborn you or me :)
> question "What exactly do we want?"
> * Do we want a system providing a reward for people who willingly and> voluntarily offered time, experience and other resources to the> project? - or -> > * Do we want a system initially providing motivation for people who> wouldn't pay attention otherwise?
This is a good question, let me try to answer on it.It would be wrong to separate people from perspective of one project.For example you are fighting bugs inside of Glassfish and I'm fighting bugs inside of Netbeans.We both are using the projects. One day I will need desperately that Glassfish team very quickly fix some issue with the server.Because I didn't hunting for Glassfish before I don't have any influence on the team. So I'm stuck. And it's not fair because I did my share of volunteer job working with Netbeans team.You should understand that I don't have unlimited time on my hands to fight in all directions.The same problem will happen with you in case you need something from Netbeans team.Is it fair? No!Is it your pure enthusiastic approach could resolve this problem? I don't think so.Could be this problem resolved if developer currency is in place? No doubt here. I would pay a few dukes to Glassfish team to fix my issue and everybody would be happy in the end.Let me try another situation here. For example I'd like to start to use Webs sockets widely in my software platform.This is quite a new technology and Glassfish 3.1 has support for it. Can I go brave with this technology without some kind of support from Glassfish team? I'm not sure about it. Having a dukes on my side I would take the risk.The third example would be about people who help a lot on the forums. I know a couple people who were pretty active on the JSF forum and some day they just stopped doing it. Of course we understand why they stopped :) No dukes, for their honest and huge efforts.
Situation with author of Firebug is another example why we need specific kind of money for developers.You have mention before about some successful open source projects including Tomcat. I used before Tomcat in my work and I know it's not really a good example of successful project. It took years for the project to catch up with some new technologies and in current situation this kind of application server is good fit only to use in school project. So let me put some perspective here. I believe that in current state open source business model is pretty retarded considering the fact how many millions smart and dedicated developers are powerless and completely dependent from their salary. Everyone of us losing power and potential all time.Our power is works like electricity. Without devices to preserve and transfer it we are all losers ;)
Here is your question go again.> question "What exactly do we want?"
We need the system that will help us to generate, preserve and distribute our power.
Kristian, this kind of power will get mostly the people who deserve it most. You should be happy!The whole power system will be transparent by nature, so bad guys will have a hard time to sneak around :)
> strength of this motivation as it is the driving force behind most of> nowadays open source projects.
For me, nowadays open source projects looks like primitives tribes comparing to civilization.Even for barter activities tribes have nothing to use. It's just shame ;)Of course I see weakness of open source projects from economics and politics points of view.
> Depends, I am not sure about that. I see (and each and every week again> learn) that quite some people are into Eclipse, Apache, Codehaus, ...> for the sole purpose of not depending upon one very business entity all> too much. Given that, the success of Glassfish will largely depend upon> how "open" Oracle will allow it to be. For now we developers have to adapt to Oracle and to other big players on the market. Of course we have to do it. After all as I mention before developers are a powerless crowd.Do we have too much politics here? Yes we have, but I'm going to stop now.
Kristian, maybe we should stop trying to define our politics and start to draw some lines.I'm sorry if I was some kind of pushy here.Silence from Fishcat members make me feel that now my position is more stronger than yours.For example how you see that we can act as team if we have nothing to share. No common projects, no common infrastructure, no common points/dukes, no common goals.I don't see much point for people to join Fishcat.Why would they? There is no warranty of attention from Glassfish team and there is no possibility to share resources as community.Just individually fill out the issue without bothering to be connected to Fishcat team and you pretty much on the same level of influence as members of Fishcat.Of course stickers from Richard would be nice to have but if developer quite busy then he will give up on it.Remember how we could vote for issues related to Sun's projects? I never saw that my voting affect something.
Sincerely,Vladimir
> Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 20:40:48 +0200
> From: rink_at_planconnect.de
> To: quality_at_glassfish.dev.java.net
> Subject: Re: Request for comments : FishCAT, the way forward
>
> Hi Vladimir;
>
> hmmm, again, quite some points to think about... and a few
> responses... ;)
>
> Am Mon, 28 Jun 2010 03:11:20 +0000
> > get attention at time of fishing :) Anyway when you are designing
> > some kind of software system I'm sure you are trying to make it
> > scalable and unifiable as much as possible. So in process of
> > designing motivation system please do not try to align its design to
> > your personal chances to win the war of the attention.
>
> You are right. But, reading especially the next paragraph, and thinking
> about the whole issue of rewarding again, I came to a conclusion in the
> question "What exactly do we want?"
>
> * Do we want a system providing a reward for people who willingly and
> voluntarily offered time, experience and other resources to the
> project? - or -
>
> * Do we want a system initially providing motivation for people who
> wouldn't pay attention otherwise?
>
> I remember a discussion like that on the NetBeans (NetCAT) mailing list
> a while ago when some people, after NetCAT finished (NetCAT used to
> have the approach of providing "winners" (...) with t-shirts, these
> days), asked whether it wouldn't be possible to provide them with sweat
> shirts or some more "valuable" clothing instead of just tees, and one
> of the NetBeans folks used to ask "what? free IDE isn't enough?"
>
> Actually, I made my mind on that I think... you have me strongly waving
> each and every flag for a rewarding system to reward enthusiasts who
> came here for the sake of it and, in the end, quietly would accept a
> reward for their time and energy. But I have doubts in _starting out_
> with a reward system to attract folks. This, IMHO, would put the wrong
> thing in the first place...
>
>
> [...]
> > because I failed to see if the problem exists. Let me put your
> > concern in more unified form. In my interpretation you are saying the
> > following: "Why to introduce award schema for services that can be
> > provided for free?" It's important question that we have to be
> > prepared to answer on it.
> [...]
>
> No, you got me wrong here I think, that's why I cut off the rest of the
> discussion and focus on that article (though most of your points on
> that definitely are valid).
>
> I do not believe you or I or we or anyone should rely upon services
> provided for free. My only opinion, and this is where I tend to be a
> little stubborn I guess... ( ;) ) is that money/economic reward is a
> reward little promising to gather the kind of people one wants. It's
> not about collecting free service and/or making people work for "us"(?)
> free-of-charge. To me, it rather is about finding people that bring
> "life" to the project, people who come running here, driven by
> enthusiasm and encouraged by seeing they're capable of making a change
> no matter how small. Put another way: make a system based upon
> financial/economic reward, and you will attract people who will mainly
> come to reap that reward rather than people who will come to get
> something done and accept a reward (given there is one) afterward.
>
>
> > > like this). The Ubuntu Mailing List is one of the friendliest
> > > places> I've ever been, a place where a whole load of people are
> > > places> likely to> quickly help you out without second thought. It
> > > places> works... ;)
> > One of the explanation friendliest of the Ubuntu forum could be that
> > many of them working as network administrators and have more time on
> > their hands comparing to typical developer. For them it could be some
> > kind of "customer support" oriented training. Of course it would be
> > interesting to organize "motivation survey" there and get more
> > precise data on this.
>
> I fully agree with you on the latter part (motivation survey). But then
> again, 95% of the Ubuntu folks I personally know (and some of them I do
> not just know "virtually") did sign the "Ubuntu Code Of Conduct"
>
> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct ,
>
> including myself to be accuracte. This is more than just being
> "technical" or having too much spare time at hand. It's a motivation
> and an attitude beyond these things, and I firmly believe in the
> strength of this motivation as it is the driving force behind most of
> nowadays open source projects.
>
>
> > We could try to put in trade agreement with Oracle possibility to buy
> > "Enterprise Manager" for dukes.Regarding your description how open
> > source business model is working I agree completely with the picture
> > you put here.In my previous letter I intentionally simplified related
> > model to make point that this model is not ideal and need to be
> > redesigned.It's very big topic that we could discuss a little bit
> > later.
>
> Ok, fine with me. :)
>
>
>
> > > I honestly have to say that Eclipse and OSGi is the dominating>
> > > technology in the JUG environment, and people seemed to stay away
> > > from> Sun technology apart from the JDK of course.
> >
> > I honestly believe if Oracle will accept our trade policy Glassfish
> > will quickly become dominated technology :)
>
> Depends, I am not sure about that. I see (and each and every week again
> learn) that quite some people are into Eclipse, Apache, Codehaus, ...
> for the sole purpose of not depending upon one very business entity all
> too much. Given that, the success of Glassfish will largely depend upon
> how "open" Oracle will allow it to be.
>
>
> [...]
> > > enthusiasm and people doing things out of passion. I think that>
> > > reaching those people is incredibly more difficult, and maybe there
> > > are
> > Just take in account how incredibly easy we can reach people when we
> > have currency on the hands :)
>
> Yes. We will. I am absolutely sure about that. But will that make the
> project more effective, more powerful? Or will it "just" attract more
> people which lack any enthusiasm, any fun or real, personal,
> compassionate involvement and just are "in it for the money" (whether
> virtual or real)?
>
> Personally, looking around NetBeans folks, looking around earlier
> FishCAT teams, I remember seeing people which used to be right that -
> passionate about what they do. Maybe, in such a setup, boundaries tend
> to be fuzzy between "testers", "users" and "street-team-alike
> grassroots marketing". Provide users with a fair reason to get aware of
> things, provide them with a small "care pack" (GlassFish stickers for
> the notebook, maybe a GlassFish lawnyard to take care of your keys or a
> decent GlassFish to wear on your tie when visiting customers), given
> them a small sensation of being "part of it", of being and feeling
> involved into something without "just" working on it. That, for sure,
> is not something to feed you I guess, it eventually will be hard to
> achieve this in a process which, at the core, is voluntary. But it
> would motivate, and it will for sure be good for your resume. Maybe
> FishCAT also could be a "GlassFish Street Team"? What do you think? ;)
>
> K.
>
>
>
> --
> Dipl.-Ing.(BA) Kristian Rink * Software- und Systemingenieur
> planConnect GmbH * Könneritzstr. 33 * 01067 Dresden
> fon: 0351 215 203 71 * cell: 0176 2447 2771 * mail: rink_at_planconnect.de
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