[javaee-spec users] [jsr342-experts] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Modularization Framework/SPI

From: Werner Keil <>
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 19:23:42 +0200

To put the focus back on options where modularity already works aside of
OSGi, look at the successful and popular Play! Framework and how it handles
dependencies in more or less a single file:

Or Fantom, though that does it on a language level, more to how Jigsaw (and
other highlights of Fantom over Java[?]) should have been in the first place:

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On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 6:17 PM, Werner Keil <> wrote:
> Ok, think of the Top 10 of the Fortune 100, then you get there...
> On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 6:01 PM, Reza Rahman <>wrote:
>>  I guess I'm not sure how to define smaller systems exactly. I work
>> mostly with the flagship corporate applications of Fortune 500 to Fortune
>> 1000 companies and some government organizations (as well as the occasional
>> startup). Most of them indeed do use the solutions you mentioned. Most of
>> the people I talk with are in the same boat.
>> On 7/26/2012 11:45 AM, Werner Keil wrote:
>> If it happens infrequently, then you probably deal with smaller systems
>> and not complex stacks like BPM, Portal, etc. more frequently...[?]
>> Also many large customers where license fees matter tend to demand local
>> deployment on a smaller container like Tomcat, TomEE, Jetty or similar
>> while the Production stage uses JBoss AS, WebLogic or WebSphere depending
>> on the vendor relations of the particular client.
>>  At the moment even that stage requires dual deployment to 2 of these 3[?]
>> Werner
>>  On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 5:39 PM, Reza Rahman <>wrote:
>>> Please note my earlier email about "nice to have" vs. an actual
>>> compelling need. The particular issue you mention does happen somewhat
>>> infrequently (and hence I see as an edge case) and are generally solvable
>>> in the vast majority of cases using things app server class-loading tweaks
>>> (when it is even needed beyond simply using Maven and being careful about
>>> what's placed in the application server's classpath).
>>> On 7/26/2012 11:30 AM, Jason T. Greene wrote:
>>>> Really? You have never seen users complain about EE classloader
>>>> isolation problems? It's pretty common these days for EE deployments to
>>>> suck in 10+ libraries that conflict with another deployments 10+ libraries.
>>>> On 7/26/12 10:27 AM, Reza Rahman wrote:
>>>>> Thanks for the clarification, but I don't think that I've
>>>>> misinterpreted
>>>>> much. The overwhelming indication the way I've seen it first hand is
>>>>> that people don't really need general modularity that much and have
>>>>> much
>>>>> more bread-and-butter concerns.
>>>>> On 7/26/2012 11:15 AM, Jason T. Greene wrote:
>>>>>> I think Jeff is frustrated because we are missing his underlying
>>>>>> point. What I think hes saying (and I am sure he will correct me), is
>>>>>> that we need standardized modularity badly. Some are sick of the
>>>>>> packaging and portability challenges in Java EE, and are considering
>>>>>> other options.
>>>>>> To his point we should be careful not to equate perceptions of low
>>>>>> OSGi use with users not wanting modularity.
>>>>>> On 7/26/12 9:28 AM, Reza Rahman wrote:
>>>>>>> I can understand that this is something you feel strongly about, but
>>>>>>> kindly get a hold of yourself (and I know you can do better :-)). I
>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>> talk with everyone that I can about these issues as frequently as I
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>> simply because I care (and have absolutely no personal stake in any
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> this). The reality that I see consistently matches up very closely
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> what Jevgeni is saying rather than what you are saying, sorry.
>>>>>>> On 7/26/2012 10:19 AM, Jeff Genender wrote:
>>>>>>>> Guys,
>>>>>>>> I don't get the support for the marketing drivel.  We all come from
>>>>>>>> different backgrounds. Be it Jboss modules, OSGI, roll your own, or
>>>>>>>> whatever.  If you want data, go look at the Jboss modules, Geronimo
>>>>>>>> (Websphere CE), Glassfish, Equinox, Karaf, Felix user mailing lists
>>>>>>>> and the number of blogs on the subject.  Go do your own count of
>>>>>>>> users... That's *not* marketing... Thats *not* anecdotal... That's
>>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>>> users. That is who we represent. That's *real* data. guess what...
>>>>>>>> They *use* our designs. Let's please stop the BS at this point.
>>>>>>>>  This
>>>>>>>> is a dead horse.  If you have something useful to contribute, please
>>>>>>>> do it...but let's stop the +1s on the loaded marketing material.
>>>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>> On Jul 26, 2012, at 9:04 AM, Reza Rahman <
>>>>>>>> <>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>  +1 (and I can guarantee that I'm a dispassionate observer on this
>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>> :-)).
>>>>>>>>> On 7/26/2012 8:23 AM, Jevgeni Kabanov wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I'm glad we agree on the sentiment.
>>>>>>>>>> The paper is NOT based on customer data. This was a community-wide
>>>>>>>>>> poll with 1450+ answers. It agrees with other larger polls, e.g.
>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>> conducted by Eclipse. It certainly is not my side of the fence,
>>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>> what the world looks like, at least in the outline.
>>>>>>>>>> My point was that OSGi adoption is fairly low, and it's the
>>>>>>>>>> poster-boy of Java modularity story. Is there an actual need
>>>>>>>>>> outside
>>>>>>>>>> the largest shops? Can we accommodate the largest shops in the
>>>>>>>>>> spec
>>>>>>>>>> without impacting the majority of the community? These are
>>>>>>>>>> important
>>>>>>>>>> questions that need answering before we commit to any one
>>>>>>>>>> solution.
>>>>>>>>>> JK
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Founder & CEO of ZeroTurnaround
>>>>>>>>>> @ekabanov | Skype: ekabanov |
>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, 26 July 2012 at 15:17, Jeff Genender wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>  Jevgeni,
>>>>>>>>>>> I have to disagree vehemently with your fist comment. Your
>>>>>>>>>>> presentation of your paper is strawman. Your paper/analysis is
>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>> your customers which is your side of the fence.  You have a small
>>>>>>>>>>> slice of a different sort of customer and your survey is directed
>>>>>>>>>>> at people who use JRebel and its likes which is anti OSGi in
>>>>>>>>>>> nature.  Different strokes for different folks but I am certainly
>>>>>>>>>>> not calling yours anecdotal... just strawman. ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>> I wasn't stating OSGi is the end-all.  But it does fit a need for
>>>>>>>>>>> what people want form what *I* see.  People want the same thing
>>>>>>>>>>> with LiveRebel.  The areas I listed is what LiveRebel helps to
>>>>>>>>>>> define as well.
>>>>>>>>>>> Hence, what you produce is exactly what I want and what your last
>>>>>>>>>>> statement pretty much summed up.  We need something that allows
>>>>>>>>>>> someone to plug in whatever modular system for now, be it OSGi,
>>>>>>>>>>> JBoss Modules, or even LiveRebel.  You stated exactly what I want
>>>>>>>>>>> to see.
>>>>>>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 26, 2012, at 6:57 AM, Jevgeni Kabanov wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>  This all is very anecdotal. In our survey most folks did not
>>>>>>>>>>>> indicate that they use OSGi or anything like it:
>>>>>>>>>>>> (only a third are our customers, the rest just the folks across
>>>>>>>>>>>> the community that responded)
>>>>>>>>>>>> There were also a bunch of open questions and although the no
>>>>>>>>>>>> downtime provisioning of application is a great concern, there
>>>>>>>>>>>> were fairly little issues with multiple library version. And
>>>>>>>>>>>> modularity without a good isolation model is not a way to solve
>>>>>>>>>>>> hot update or the class loading issues you mentioned.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm afraid we're trying to solve the issues of the largest
>>>>>>>>>>>> shops,
>>>>>>>>>>>> which are always more complex than the rest and probably do
>>>>>>>>>>>> need a
>>>>>>>>>>>> custom solution built on OSGi or whatnot. And they already have
>>>>>>>>>>>> access to OSGi on the Glassfish, Websphere and so on.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Wouldn't it make more sense to accommodate OSGi as an optional
>>>>>>>>>>>> extension of the spec and just define better interoperation? I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>> afraid that baking modularity into the Java EE spec will
>>>>>>>>>>>> introduce
>>>>>>>>>>>> more complexity than it's worth for most of the Java EE
>>>>>>>>>>>> ecosystem.
>>>>>>>>>>>> JK
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> Founder & CEO of ZeroTurnaround
>>>>>>>>>>>> @ekabanov | Skype: ekabanov |
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, 26 July 2012 at 14:41, Jeff Genender wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>  Hi Craig... thanks for the response and I darned well agree
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a lot in this email ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> answers in line...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 25, 2012, at 7:30 PM, Craig Ringer wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  On 07/25/2012 09:53 PM, Jeff Genender wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In my world, I am seeing users pushing modularity in front of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JavaEE and we are really missing this boat. A large section
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my clients are moving to OSGi stacks picking and choosing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they want in their stacks, with some building their own
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JavaEE
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> light containers (JTA, JPA).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can you explain in a bit more detail what problems they're
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> encountering that leave them forced to take this option?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Application and business problems, not just the common "we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> X because we've always used it" issues I see come up
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sometimes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here are what I usually hear:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1) The comments made come along the line of the thick stack and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> having resources used by major components that aren't used.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Complaint is EE-bloat.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2) Ability to hot deploy/undeploy without corrupting the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> classloaders. Example... try to deploy/deploy a war many times
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a standard JavaEE container until an OutOf Memory exception
>>>>>>>>>>>>> occurs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3) Ability to provision applications and services on the fly
>>>>>>>>>>>>> without having to reboot - think cloud-like Applications As A
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Service (AaaS).
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4) Ability to prevent class clashing with multiple versions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wanting to run multiple applications in the same container
>>>>>>>>>>>>> without worry for parent classloading corruption - the class
>>>>>>>>>>>>> tree
>>>>>>>>>>>>> classloading issues.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5) Dependent execution. The ability to run transitive
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dependencies on other applications/jars, much like a Unix
>>>>>>>>>>>>> inti.d
>>>>>>>>>>>>> or Windows services model. i.e. an application can;t run until
>>>>>>>>>>>>> its other dependent applications are running.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> OSGi seems to wor in this model, albeit with a great amount of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> pain.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you have people who really must swap out the JTA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> implementation in a an app server with a different one in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> order
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to meet business or application requirements? JPA I fully
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understand, but JTA? I'm surprised and interested by that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, many of my clients are interested in the Blueprint JTA
>>>>>>>>>>>>> implementation or use a local resource like Spring. Hence those
>>>>>>>>>>>>> who want to use Spring local transactions can rip out the JTA,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>> if they need XA, they wire up Aries/Blueprint and enable
>>>>>>>>>>>>> aries-transaction. I see this choice a lot.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm having very frustrating problems with the lack of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugability of some of the upper layer stuff myself. Hibernate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a very poor fit for the needs of an app I'm working on, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> getting EclipseLink to integrate well into AS7 is a major
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pain.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I appreciate the need for pluggability at least at the higher
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> levels of the stack, and it's been a major source of pain for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> since I started working with Java EE.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My comments were specific to CDI and some low level, tightly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> integrated components in the server like the EJB3
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> implementation, JTA, JCA, etc. These are tightly integrated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - from what I've seen in AS7's sources and on the bug tracker
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the existing SPIs appear inadeaute to allow them to simply be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> swapped out and replaced. I'd *love* to be wrong about this,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my experience even trying to swap out theoretically pluggable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things like JPA implementations argues against it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I would like to see a certain baseline of infrastructure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> locked
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in place as something thatthe app server does not have to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> support replacing (it still may if it chooses). In exchange,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> certain higher level components like JSF2, JPA2, maybe JAX-RS,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc would *have* to support being swapped out with either
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> app-bundled implementations or modules installed in the app
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> server. This would give vendors realistic test targets and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> narrow the number of configurations to something (almost)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> testable. It would also make it clearer which specs need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complete SPIs as a priority.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for needing a module system: I could not possibly agree
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and think that things like CDI *should* be modules within the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> app server - for app server maintainability and good design.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sure enough you'll see that all the low level components in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> AS7
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are modules. I just don't think the spec should require the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> server vendor to support applications swapping out arbitrary
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> modules; that needs to be confined to modules implementing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> specs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where there's a good enough SPI.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The trouble with the module system issue is that JBoss modules
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is probably a bit too basic, and OSGi is (IMO) convoluted and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> horrible to work with. There isn't a really good candidate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I completely agree with you... but I am just concerned we are
>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to miss the boat if we keep putting this off. ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Craig Ringer
>>>>>>>>>> No virus found in this message.
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